Editor's Note: Minutes received after the cut-off for inclusion in the Proceedings. Minutes of the TCP/UDP over CLNP-addressed Networks Working Group (TUBA)} Reported by Peter Ford/LLNL Keith Sklower (UC Berkeley) reported on his implementation of TUBA using BSD 4.4 as a software base. The total number of lines of added or changed source code, including ifdefs, turns out to be around 700 lines, with about 200 lines devoted to the TCP/UDP glue layer for CLNP. These changes do not include changes to gethostbyname() where Keith indicated he wanted to get Bill Manning's code. It was noted that the API issues, such as gethostbyname() and socket() in Unix, were very important and that these interfaces were not worked on in the IETF but in other standards organizations such as IEEE POSIX. The discussion quickly turned to the issue of what to use for TCP/UDP connection identifiers. Ross Callon (DEC) supported the use of the CLNP NSAP ID field as the TCP connection identifier since it is possible to build systems where the ID field does not change when the NSAP might change due to changes in routing such as the case in some implementations for mobile hosts. Keith explained that using the NSAP would be better since it places no restrictions on NSAP format. Brian Carpenter stated that TUBA has great utility for those who are going to use TUBA but are not really part of the IP Internet, so there should not be restrictions placed on NSAP formats for the use of TUBA which would impede its use in this context. There were several comments speculation that perhaps 6 bytes of ID would not be enough in the future and that administration of this ID space might prove to be problematic. Several people noted that the pseudoheader may have outlived its usefulness. Vint Cerf explained the origin and rationale for the TCP pseudoheader. When it was decided to split the functionality of old TCP into current TCP and IP, there was concern as to how to detect corruption of TCP connection identifiers. It would have been possible to directly store the IP addresses in the TCP header or use the pseudoheader which goes into the IP header to get IP addresses. Several people asked about the probability of this sort of problem, and Vint noted that something always goes wrong and that TCP has benefited tremendously by designing accordingly. The group reached a tentative consensus on an implementation agreement to use the entire NSAP for the purposes of generating TCP connection Ids along with the NSEL and TCP/UDP Port numbers. This will allow trial implementations to proceed. Those who want to implement alternatives are free to do so for experimental testing, but for the sake of interoperability tests of TUBA, implementors are encouraged to implement along the lines of the trial implementation agreement. Keith Sklower is looking into the licensing issues of his implementation and will report to the TUBA list. The issue of network translation boxes came up and was quickly tabled as not being germane to the goals of developing TUBA at this time. Network translation may resurface once TUBA has been completely specified. The discussion shifted to the issues TUBA documentation and what TUBA transition would look like. Ross Callon discussed the "son of rfc 1347" which is the core TUBA document. Ross also noted that his TUBA addressing internet-draft needs to be updated and noted that some other topics needed to be discussed in it such as: EIDs, limitation of CLNP addressing to 20 bytes is not mandatory, the nature of scaling and flexibility of CLNP NSAPs, and some kind of analysis of future Internetwork topologies which reflect possible futures such as telco provided switching and its impact on the "branchiness" of the network. Dave Piscitello reported that he is working on updating his document on the use of CLNP in the TUBA environment. Bill Manning and Richard Collela reported they have made significant changes to the DNS NSAP resource record RFC and hope to reissue it soon. A brief discussion of transition issues revealed that they were very complicated and a second TUBA meeting was scheduled for Friday (20 Nov. 92). TUBA transition meeting (20 Nov. 92) The initial topic was the question of whether to assume that all the infrastructure would become CLNP capable vrs. the use of encapsulation or network layer translation. The majority of the group is in favor of assuming that a ubiquitous CLNP infrastructure can be deployed in a timely manner and it was noted that this is progressing pretty well. Brian Carpenter suggested tighter coupling between the TUBA group and other groups interested in CLNP deployment: HEP, etc. Bill Manning reported on his NSAP DNS work and reported that he has an implementation of BIND which handles NSAPs. He has some changes he still needs to make, but is willing to share his implementation with others. He is deploying this for testing on ns.sesquinet.net. Dave Katz's name was suggested to contribute a document on the use of ES-IS and dynamic host addressing in the TUBA environment. Mark agreed to ask Dave. Frank Solensky mentioned he is studying the use of large addresses, including SIP, TUBA, PIP, etc., and their impact on APIs and application interfaces and hopes to generate a document on these topics. Work on new documents was discussed and divided up. It was pointed out that the TUBA group needs to do a better job of documenting the transition process to get to a TUBA world. Yakov Rekhter has a Mobile Hosts document he would like to contribute. Bill Manning, John Curran and Mark Knopper signed up for a detailed transition plan document. John Curran, Brian Carpenter and Peter Ford will finish up the response to the IPv7 requirements fulfillment document pending output from the requirements BOF held earlier this week. It was decided a TUBA meeting in late January would be needed to keep TUBA progressing. Attendees Roland Acra acra@cisco.com Cengiz Alaettinoglu ca@cs.umd.edu Philip Almquist almquist@jessica.stanford.edu Jules Aronson aronson@nlm.nih.gov Nagaraj Arunkumar nak@3com.com William Barns barns@gateway.mitre.org Bryan Beecher bryan@umich.edu Shiraz Bhanji bhanji@gateway.mitre.org David Bolen db3l@ans.net Ross Callon callon@bigfut.lkg.dec.com Brian Carpenter brian@dxcern.cern.ch George Chang gkc@ctt.bellcore.com Henry Clark henryc@oar.net Richard Colella colella@osi.ncsl.nist.gov Michael Collins collinsms@es.net Michael Conn 4387451@mcimail.com John Dale jdale@cos.com Osmund de Souza osmund.desouza@att.com Richard desJardins desjardi@boa.gsfc.nasa.gov David Dubois dad@pacersoft.com Jacques Dugast dugast@issy.cnet.fr Dino Farinacci dino@cisco.com Eric Fleischman ericf@act.boeing.com Peter Ford peter@goshawk.lanl.gov Shoji Fukutomi fuku@furukawa.co.jp Peter Furniss p.furniss@ulcc.ac.uk Masayoshi Gohara mg@sinet.ad.jp Heather Gray heather@zk3.dec.com Thomas Hacker hacker@citi.umich.edu William Haggerty haggerty@ctron.com Joel Halpern jmh@network.com Susan Hares skh@merit.edu Tim Howes tim@umich.edu. Kathleen Huber khuber@bbn.com David Jacobson dnjake@vnet.ibm.com Dwight Jamieson djamies@bnr.ca Matthew Jonson jonson@server.af.mil Merike Kaeo merike@alw.nih.gov Akira Kato kato@wide.sfc.keio.ac.jp Dave Katz dkatz@cisco.com Mark Knopper mak@merit.edu John Krawczyk jkrawczy@wellfleet.com Tony Li tli@cisco.com David Lin lind@janus-ccm.zenith.com 1 ^L Tracy Mallory tracym@3com.com Bill Manning bmanning@sesqui.net Matt Mathis mathis@a.psc.edu Jun Matsukata jm@eng.isas.ac.jp Donald Merritt don@brl.mil David Meyer meyer@oregon.uoregon.edu Dave Monachello dave@pluto.dss.com Robert Moose rmoose@gateway.mitre.org Dennis Morris morrisd@imo-uvax.disa.mil Jun Murai jun@wide.ad.jp Tu Nguyen Nguyen1T@cc.ims.disa.mil Andy Nicholson droid@cray.com Peder Norgaard pcn@tbit.dk Andrew Partan asp@uunet.uu.net Laura Pate pate@gateway.mitre.org David Piscitello dave@sabre.bellcore.com Yakov Rekhter yakov@watson.ibm.com April Richstein abm@tycho.ncsc.mil Henry Sanders henrysa@microsoft.com Dallas Scott scott@fluky.mitre.org John Scudder jgs@merit.edu Paul Serice serice@cos.com Keith Sklower sklower@cs.berkeley.edu Frank Solensky solensky@andr.ub.com Richard Thomas rjthomas@bnr.ca Paul Traina pst@cisco.com Iain Wacey cat@pluto.dss.com William Warner warner@ohio.gov Luanne Waul luanne@wwtc.timeplex.com Guy Wells guy2@uswest.com Evan Wetstone evan@rice.edu Kirk Williams kirk@sbctri.sbc.com Linda Winkler lwinkler@anl.gov Cathy Wittbrodt cjw@nersc.gov